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Those that say they feel the difference, we'll I think that's more optimism and placebo.

If they actually tested the difference they would discover that what little difference their is was not worth the premium price of the fuel.
 

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I was thinking it wouldn't make much difference in performance but if I tell the wife I have put more expensive fuel in it to give her car a bit more oomph she will believe me.
Just chuck some redx in it and show her the bottle, she will think she's piloting a fighter jet by the blurb written on the bottle and the placebo affect.

My wife however I wouldn't dare, her car doesn't need an accelerator it just needs a stop / start button (peddle is either planted to the floor or her foot is off it) I don't think she needs extra power or the feeling of extra power
 

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I am Batman!
Kuga ST - Manual 6 Speed - 200PS+ Petrol.
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What you need to do is to have secretly remapped and then change the fuel! 😂 Some remaps require the use of Premium but only on the 'race' type remap not fast road like my Kuga. I try and mix it up on my remapped 1.5 petrol and buy 1 premium for every 3 or 4 regular fill-ups as some contain additives which can help reduce friction and also clean internal parts long term.
 

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2013 Titanium X with 2017 Powershift Conversion.
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RON stands for Reasearch Octane Number.

On some high performance cars the PCM will use aggressive adaptive ignition timing in conjunction with the knock sensors, it will add timing until a certain knock threshold or limit is met. Using 97 or 99 in this instance will produce more power. Subaru use this strategy in their performance petrol cars.

For a "normal" car 95 would be fine.

For a "normal" car that has fuel standing in the tank, the 97ron is NOW the best bet, solely due to the reduced Ethanol content.

I have flushed my GTO and filled it with Aspen 4, this is as pure as it gets (no Benzine, Ethanol etc), but £80 for a 25l tub!. Has a shelf life in excess of 3 years. If this evaporates it leaves nothing behind at all.

I won't be out in it this year now and spent ££££'s on it's fuel system so money well spent imho.

8340
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Wow. That has given me a lot to think about. I filled up with e10 this morning as the filler flap said either was OK. But if its going to attract water I'll probably fill up with e5 when this tankfull is used, as I have a couple of longish journies next week.
 

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Super Moderator and Mr Grumpy
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Same with the wife's car as it doesn't do many miles now. Had it MOT'd yesterday and it had only done 1,900 miles. It looks like someone has closed the bonnet with their thumb and that's not me. Don't people know you NEVER close the bonnet with your hand as it's supposed to be dropped. I dare not tell the wife.
 

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2021 Kuga ST-Line X edition PHEV
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Sorry guys, but there's so much mis- information here, I'm aghast.
All fuel can have water in it, its more important that the garage ensure the tanks are purged than the fuel you use.
It doesn't make water, it can absorb moisture, but tanks are sealed, and it doesn't contain it unless the garage messes up with their tanks. But the reality is we're talking about 5% extra.
A litre of ethanol is 34% less combustible than pure petrol, so another 5% is negligible.
Put 5% more water in your pint and see if you notice a change.
Your brake fluid is the same, if not worse but no one is taking the same precautions due to water, we leave that in for years.

And if your car is affected by a fuel with approx 1.7% less combustibilty, and you notice, I'll be amazed.

A higher RON rated fuel can give more power and mpg, simply because it allows the injection rate to be closer to lean running, safer than normal unleaded or is more combustible giving more power, which can also allow me mpg in the right conditions.
It's just as susceptible to bad garages.

Some vehicles require super unleaded to attain full power, but can run perfectly happy on lower standard fuels.

The big change with E10, is that it's shelf life is reported to be 3-6 months, rather than 6 months plus.
I've often had fuel older and it's been fine, it doesn't completely lose its properties but starts to deteriorate.
But oil does exactly the same after a certain mileage, and no one is worried there.
The hyperbole over E10 isn't something that an owner of most cars in the last 10-15 years need be worried about.
 

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I just go by personal experience, when you've seen what fuel can do when left too long you try and prevent it.

This was an MV Augusta, I had to strip the tank and entire fuel system. Not a nice job and not the only one.

Modern cars will "tolerate" E10 but it's a backwards step, a cheap filler to bulk out the petrol.

The tank is sealed but air must be sucked in to replace the fuel that is used, cars have carbon canisters and "evaporative emissions control" but that is to vent excess pressure when tank heats up.

I wouldn't want E10 sat around in a car that is infrequently used.

8342
 

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2021 Kuga ST-Line X edition PHEV
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I just go by personal experience, when you've seen what fuel can do when left too long you try and prevent it.

This was an MV Augusta, I had to strip the tank and entire fuel system. Not a nice job and not the only one.

Modern cars will "tolerate" E10 but it's a backwards step, a cheap filler to bulk out the petrol.

The tank is sealed but air must be sucked in to replace the fuel that is used, cars have carbon canisters and "evaporative emissions control" but that is to vent excess pressure when tank heats up.

I wouldn't want E10 sat around in a car that is infrequently used.

View attachment 8342
But how long was it sitting for? Year or two? How did you store it?

And you know there's a difference between something sitting around with very little fuel in a cold garage and something that takes a while to get used?
I've currently got 1 bike that's been sitting for 10 years, and another 2 that sit for 6 months at a time.
They don't get left with full tanks, no fuel stabiliser, nothing.

Fuel is replaced by air when it is used, that's the key, it doesn't suck the moisture from it in, when not used.
If you think about it, what byou're actually suggesting is that your tank will always be full because the air has so much moisture it will fill the empty space constantly.

If anyone is actually filling up once a year, you bought the wrong car, and needed a full EV.
Like I say, it's being overthinked here, and if you're really worried, just floor the car once a month, bring the petrol engine in for a mile or two. I doubt there's anyone that isn't using the ICE at least once a month.
 

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But how long was it sitting for? Year or two? How did you store it?

And you know there's a difference between something sitting around with very little fuel in a cold garage and something that takes a while to get used?
I've currently got 1 bike that's been sitting for 10 years, and another 2 that sit for 6 months at a time.
They don't get left with full tanks, no fuel stabiliser, nothing.

Fuel is replaced by air when it is used, that's the key, it doesn't suck the moisture from it in, when not used.
If you think about it, what byou're actually suggesting is that your tank will always be full because the air has so much moisture it will fill the empty space constantly.

If anyone is actually filling up once a year, you bought the wrong car, and needed a full EV.
Like I say, it's being overthinked here, and if you're really worried, just floor the car once a month, bring the petrol engine in for a mile or two. I doubt there's anyone that isn't using the ICE at least once a month.
I think you've gone well beyond any reasonable argument here.
 

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There is nothing wrong in agreeing to disagree and some interesting points made.

Is ethanol cheaper to refine than petrol and if so, will we see much of a reduction at the pumps.

Will the resources of the old premium fuel now be sold off as the "new" super unleaded making instant profit for the petrol industry or are we going to see super unleaded and then supreme super unleaded.

I have never had fuel turn to jelly, set hard or go off in any of my motorbikes or petrol powered garden equipment since unleaded came in. However, I value keithmac's opinion as he sees the problems that most of us never experience.
 

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2021 Kuga ST-Line X edition PHEV
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I'm not disagreeing that water in fuel is bad, or causes issues.


I'm just aghast that you're all seeing it as something to panic about, because we have a tiny bit more ethanol.
Just as bad as the anti EV brigade that tell us our batteries are a bomb waiting to explode. One extreme case does not mean we're all going to clog up our fuel systems.

I've seen what water in a system can do, but that's the extreme case, and all down to conditions of storage.
There's plenty of vintage bike owners and dealers that have nothing but immaculate fuel systems.

As for future costs, I expect super to go up in price to cash in on the paranoia currently being shown. I've seen it on more than this site.
 

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A fair few vintage bike owners strip the Ethanol out completely with Dyed water.

I've seen first hand what it does to carbs, most now are either hand lapped metal fuel needles or Viton tipped.

Any water in a fuel tank just sits at the bottom, not an issue with a plastic tank (unless it gets sucked through fuel system) but will rot a metal fuel tank from inside out.

Every fuel system job I get in I drain the tank down completely and check for water, out of 20 carb jobs this year at leas 5 have had excessive water content.

Bottom picture is ethanol damage to a vintage carb, that was a lot of work to get back in good running order.

8350



8352

8351



8353
 

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Sorry guys, but there's so much mis- information here, I'm aghast.
All fuel can have water in it, its more important that the garage ensure the tanks are purged than the fuel you use.
It doesn't make water, it can absorb moisture, but tanks are sealed, and it doesn't contain it unless the garage messes up with their tanks. But the reality is we're talking about 5% extra.
A litre of ethanol is 34% less combustible than pure petrol, so another 5% is negligible.
Put 5% more water in your pint and see if you notice a change.
Your brake fluid is the same, if not worse but no one is taking the same precautions due to water, we leave that in for years.

And if your car is affected by a fuel with approx 1.7% less combustibilty, and you notice, I'll be amazed.

A higher RON rated fuel can give more power and mpg, simply because it allows the injection rate to be closer to lean running, safer than normal unleaded or is more combustible giving more power, which can also allow me mpg in the right conditions.
It's just as susceptible to bad garages.
Don't be too aghast, your understanding of octane ratings is incorrect. A higher octane fuel is not "more combustible", it is simply more compressible before detonation. It doesn't contain more energy or necessarily burn easier.
 

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2021 Kuga ST-Line X edition PHEV
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I've seen damage like that on carbs years ago, before we even had ethanol in fuel, which had been how long? Couple of years? Little longer?
That's water damage, not ethanol damage.
Like I say, if you're parking your car or bike up and not using it for a long while, you'll need to take precautions, but that's been the case for years. I've got a bike that's not been used for 8 years, the tank is perfect, the carb is perfect.
Do we even have metal tanks on anything anymore? Ford have been using them since the mondeo came in, so I doubt we have one.
Like I say, there's problems to worry about and there's mountains out of molehills
 

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Kuga ST Line X 1.5 Eco 180ps 6 Speed Auto AWD Magnetic
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A fair few vintage bike owners strip the Ethanol out completely with Dyed water.

I've seen first hand what it does to carbs, most now are either hand lapped metal fuel needles or Viton tipped.

Any water in a fuel tank just sits at the bottom, not an issue with a plastic tank (unless it gets sucked through fuel system) but will rot a metal fuel tank from inside out.

Every fuel system job I get in I drain the tank down completely and check for water, out of 20 carb jobs this year at leas 5 have had excessive water content.

Bottom picture is ethanol damage to a vintage carb, that was a lot of work to get back in good running order.

View attachment 8350


View attachment 8352
View attachment 8351


View attachment 8353
Your posts are always to the point @keithmac and always with excellent pics. As well as that you never seem to be “aghast” too often 🤔
 

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Your posts are always to the point @keithmac and always with excellent pics. As well as that you never seem to be “aghast” too often 🤔
Cheers!, seen it all before, nothing surprises me nowadays!.

As said above Octane is basically a fuels ability to resist pre-detonation/ pre ignition, nothing to do with it's calorific value.

I'll just stick to fixing vehicles and making my own mind up 👍.

As with everything, you need to take everything you read on the Internet with a pinch of salt and make your own judgement.

I built my Mitsubishi GTO to run on E85 when it was available from Morrisons, PTFE fuel lines throughout, Ethanol safe fuel pumps etc. It was basically cheap race fuel.

I always drained it out if it was stood for more than a couple of weeks though.

E85 did what it said on the tin, this E10 rubbish is the worst of all worlds though.

Every customer who picks a bike up that I've rebuilt and set the carbs up gets advised to run Super Unleaded.
 

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A higher RON rated fuel can give more power and mpg, simply because it allows the injection rate to be closer to lean running, safer than normal unleaded or is more combustible giving more power, which can also allow me mpg in the right conditions.
It's just as susceptible to bad garages.

Some vehicles require super unleaded to attain full power, but can run perfectly happy on lower standard fuels.
You do know all about MTBT tuning surely? (Minimum Timing for Best Torque), and best torque output is a lot richer than Stoichiometric (14.7:1).

So if you're trying to lean the car off you're leaving a wedge of torque on the table..

8355


The Ironic thing is for a Petrol car the O2 sensors will adjust for E10 so you'll be losing MPG because the PCM will be opening the injectors longer to add more fuel to reach the Target AFR laid down in the Fuel Tables.

So basically you are getting less useable fuel for the same money.
 
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