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Tyre sensor not detected

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AndyS79 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Jun 2017 at 9:16am
I had a punctured tyre replaced at the weekend, and i'm now getting a message 'Tyre pressure sensor not detected'. The message didn't come up straight away (otherwise I wouldn't have even got out of the car park before taking the car back) but a day later.

I presume the garage have disposed of the sensor in error. I can't be the first person this has happened to, so has anyone ever managed to get the garage to fork out for a new sensor?

Before I speak to the garage, is there any way I can tell if the sensor is missing, or is the evidence on the inside of the wheel?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ian67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2017 at 7:23pm
Hi
I have a 2014 titanium x and it doesn`t have sensors in the wheels as it works off the abs.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fillco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2017 at 8:46pm
If it says 'Tyre pressure sensor not detected'. then it has sensors, and I suspect its still in the wheel but has failed, possibly damaged during the puncture repair. It obviously worked fine otherwise it would have warned you as soon as you started the car, so its how you prove the repairer damaged the sensor.


Edited by Fillco - 19 Jun 2017 at 9:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyS79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2017 at 8:09am
I wondered if a sensor is missing whether the car gave it a 'grace period'. Ie if it isn't detected after 3 restarts then it will flag an error.

Anyway I have rung the garage and they said they will sort it. Wife is dropping the car off at the garage today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fillco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2017 at 8:34am
Great

It does a check when you start the vehicle, or mine does. I've only had one slow puncture and it warned me within a few minutes if not seconds of starting the engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote murcod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 1:46am
Don't the sensors enter a "sleep mode" if there is no wheel rotation- then you need to reach to certain speed before they power up again?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fillco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 5:21am
I'm not sure of the operation but to have some kind of gravitational sensor to sense centrifugal force inside the TPMs to sense speed seems a bit elaborate. I'm thinking that the TMPs is polled particularly as it can give a warning after starting the car and before moving off, and, you actually request a reset/store of the present pressures so you are instigating a transmission from the sensors so they must be receiving some kind of poll/call/request to transmit their pressure.

Without going into DATA collision and CSMA, my guess is the car transmits a request to the sensors (could even be a general request/broadcast to all of them), each one transmits its pressure with its unique ID, if any transmissions clash then the car does a further poll until its received all 4 pressures. Or it calls them individually of course. Its all done in milliseconds.


Edited by Fillco - 21 Jun 2017 at 9:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jumborat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 8:27am
Originally posted by murcod murcod wrote:

Don't the sensors enter a "sleep mode" if there is no wheel rotation- then you need to reach to certain speed before they power up again?



I unknowingly got a nail in a tyre on my way to a weekend away a couple of years ago. With the car parked on grass I'd not noticed the tyre nearly flat but the TPMS pinged a warning as soon as I started the engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fillco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 9:03am
Yes that what I found Simon, it warned me straight away, and it was a nail too, but a slow puncture. That which I concluded the car calls the sensors, so there will be a transceiver (transmitter and Receiver) in the assembly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyS79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 10:11am
Well the car has been sorted, but as the wife dropped it off and picked it up they didn't explain what the issue was. I haven't had a chance to go in to the menu and see if they've simply switched it off!

Which i'm sure they wouldn't do. Cough.


BTW I did find a post on a Focus RS forum about a guy who swapped all 4 wheels without swapping the tyre sensors over and it didn't flag up straight away. 
I'm sure it does flag straight away for punctures (it did for mine) but when a sensor can't be detected, I think the system gives it an amount of time before it reports it. Possibly to reduce the amount of false positives if for example there is radio interference in the location where the car is started.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fillco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 10:52am
How old was the Focus, if built pre 2014 it may used ABS.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyS79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 11:45am
Current shape RS. The old ABS ring method of detection wouldn't give a message regarding tyre sensors.

I've trawled the net to try and find a technical manual for the TPMS system but can't find one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fillco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 11:57am
Sorry misread the post there Andy, so he put tyres on without sensors and it took a while to alarm. Maybe when it finds no sensors as you say it takes a while. Not experienced that so that's something to add to how it works.

I dont think there is any manual as such as there are a few variants. At one time the sensor had to be programmed to the car so that's one other variant.

My assumptions are based on what I know happens on mine and lets say educated possibilities of how it likely operates.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pennine MC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by jumborat jumborat wrote:

Originally posted by murcod murcod wrote:

Don't the sensors enter a "sleep mode" if there is no wheel rotation- then you need to reach to certain speed before they power up again?



I unknowingly got a nail in a tyre on my way to a weekend away a couple of years ago. With the car parked on grass I'd not noticed the tyre nearly flat but the TPMS pinged a warning as soon as I started the engine.


I had a screw in my N/S rear a few months back - IIRC I also got the warning immediately, cancelled it thinking 'bloody electronics again' and it was back on before I left the office car park (at around 10mph). Tyre was low, but not so low that I couldn't drive carefully to get it repaired.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote murcod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 1:03am
Originally posted by Pennine MC Pennine MC wrote:

Originally posted by jumborat jumborat wrote:

Originally posted by murcod murcod wrote:

Don't the sensors enter a "sleep mode" if there is no wheel rotation- then you need to reach to certain speed before they power up again?



I unknowingly got a nail in a tyre on my way to a weekend away a couple of years ago. With the car parked on grass I'd not noticed the tyre nearly flat but the TPMS pinged a warning as soon as I started the engine.


I had a screw in my N/S rear a few months back - IIRC I also got the warning immediately, cancelled it thinking 'bloody electronics again' and it was back on before I left the office car park (at around 10mph). Tyre was low, but not so low that I couldn't drive carefully to get it repaired.


I'd read it somewhere when researching TPMS sensors, the idea being to conserve battery life. The Kuga must use a different system.

Edit: Here's an article from 2009 talking about the centrifugal waking of sensors. So it's obviously used in older systems.

Quote Since most sensors use wake-up circuitry that uses technology based on centrifugal force, TPMS sensors must be mounted properly. If you get a sensor flipped upside down inside the wheel (and some will let you mount them that way), it may not receive the right centrifugal force on its accelerometer to wake it up, resulting in an illuminated warning light. Pay close attention to how sensors come out of a known-good wheel and you won't find this out the hard way.


Edited by murcod - 22 Jun 2017 at 1:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fillco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 5:50am
Thanks for that link re centrifuge, I guess its simple to do with a switch that operates on gravity, or these days an accelerometer and the electronics give timed transmissions when active. From the link its was critical to mount these early devices it seems.


I think someone on the forum did a reset/learn on his Kuga and was convinced it picked up a sensor from the car parked next to him as he had an warning later but found nothing wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hillybilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 8:45am
One off our nieghbors has a mondeo occasionally one or the other will get an alert on the wrong
Car at start up mostly when I have tyre pressure up for towing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote murcod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 1:31pm
 It must be fun working out which vehicle has low pressure when they're packed in tightly at a dealer.
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